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Has anyone suggested leaving them alone? They're people who lack the antibodies to be around "the other people" and, if brought into society, will only start and die at the lowest level of the social ladder: beggars, and prostitutes. They're a warrior people, so leave them be.

EDIT: As for calling them "science experiments," what is so different from people studying them as it is people studying other people's cultures?
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Since when are they a warrior people?
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Learn?

We can't very well do that without committing to interacting with them.
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Right. Ant, to ask them we must learn their language. To learn from them we must interact with them. To interact with them we must inoculate them. To inoculate them is to begin integration. Every historical version of this that I've seen has ended in a variation of "they shun us, kill those who came in, and retreated into less passable terrain until they dwindled out of existence from disease, deforestation, or inability to migrate" or "they become integrated."
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Hydrogen: Hm. Wrong word. Switch that with, "hardy, amazon people." They know how to live in the Amazon and prosper, otherwise they would not be alive today.
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This is an extreme touchy subject. They could be like the sentinelese, they could be more like the Toulambi, either way, in my opinion (because that's all I've got, there's not much beyond that) is make contact, and then leave them to themselves. i don't know why but I feel that they deserve to know at very least, that there are people out there.

As for watching them advance, the Australian Aboriginies, they are the oldest continuing civilisation in the world, they've been on the continent for 40,000 years, we've been there for 300. In 40,000 years they came up with few inventions, short stick, long stick, curvy stick and diaper. Most of their innovations were things like methods of hunting, and songs to track there way across vast expanses and finding water. These amazonians alike, will not advance as Europeans have, their advancements will be similar, mainly hunting techniques, a knowledge of insects and plants, that sort of stuff.
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Why is that bad? What makes a more advanced civilization better?
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It's right there in the "advanced" bit... And it wasn't meant to be taken as "we're better" it was simply in reference to the "watch them develop" bit, the only reason our civilisation developed is contact with other "tribes" and the availability of resources. They will not develop if left isolated, and that may not be a bad thing, in fact, it may be the best thing, but if you want to be scientific and say "Let's see what they do" they really won't do much.
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See, that's what lead me to the "Who defines happiness" argument. I think it's safe to say that every person alive is in the pursuit of happiness or contentment. Who's to say that these people are unhappy? that their way of life isn't a path to contentment and happiness. I don't think our more advanced culture with it's suicide rates and all around general unhappiness can't really set the standard.
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Why is that bad? What makes a more advanced civilization better?

We aren't discussing their happiness, you asked about their civilisation, ours is a clearly superior civilisation, they could be very happy for all we know, I'm not arguing that. And if you were you should have made that clearer (sh*t... Look who I'm starting to sound like)
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Having more stuff does not make your existence more important, nor does it make your quality of life better.
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In other words, Gray, I think Sunshine is saying that your definition of "clearly superior" hasn't been clearly defined. Many would say the superior civilization is the civilization in which people are the happiest (which is why Sunshine said what she said, I think).

How are you defining superior?
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We are a better "civilisation" we have cities and borders and defined populations, that IS civilistion in its purest definition. Look it up on wikipedia and you will see "cities, the hallmark of civilisation." Secondly, we are better off, our life expectancy is higher, we have intimate knowledge of science and the world around us, we have medical advacements and we've learned to adapt the environment. We are, in effect, civilisation. They have no such things, the only advancements they have are spears, bows and houses They have knowledge of the world around them yes, but they cannot manipulate it. Technology and understanding (in effect, advancements) I believe are the definition of civilisation.

But seeing as you have chosen to interpret civilisation as some happiness metre based on emotions and the people involved. I will argue your point. We are better because we have the ability to say "I am not happy in my current situation." This in essence is more important than happiness, they can't be anything they want, they are a tribal, hunter gatherer people, they can't acquire happiness, work towards it, change their situation, they remain in the jungle, with their tribe unaware of the fact that there are even other ways of life. Don't dog western civilisation we ARE great, people are so quick to point out the flaws but I'm glad my ancestors crawled out of the forest and created advanced commerce, I'm so glad that we can work our way out of the shitheap should we choose. We can change our situation, our location, everything about ourselves.

There, by the conventional and social means, we are superior to this tribe.
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I agree to an extent. Still, I feel that were there condition unfavorable they would change them.
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They would be unable to. They don't know how. That's the point, they have to adapt to their environment. We adapted our environment. Our ancestors said, man these forests are difficult to live in, I know, I'll turn these trees into a ship, and find a better place to live. A better spear for hunting and most importantly, we learned to cultivate, we aren't dictated by nature. They are, we learned to best utilise nature. I can eat bread all year round thanks to those innovations. And the rest, they say, is history. We are a better civilisation.

Now, one more time, I wasn't initially discussing us being better, I didn't even say that. I was merely rebutting the idea that we study their development. One because they aren't lab rats, and two because they won't develop. Not for thousands and thousands of years. Because they haven't got the contact with other humans, and that is kind've wha leads to civilisation, is contact. It's the catalyst to force you to cultivate your own lands, divide borders, begin trade. And they have no contact.
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Grayseff said:
We are a better "civilisation" we have cities and borders and defined populations, that IS civilistion in its purest definition. Look it up on wikipedia and you will see "cities, the hallmark of civilisation."


The simple fact that wikipedia is the final decision maker on issues, makes us a lesser civilization.

On topic though, a we shouldn't intervene because it is not our duty to. No society has a right to intervene on another "just to see what's going on". We don't go to Africa and sit there with pens and paper taking notes on how they live. Instead of trying to worry about society that clearly has been around for centuries without technology, lets help those who WANT to be helped.
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We can't know if they want help if we don't ask.
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Yes. It is the moral problem of this situation that you have the choice to make an irreversible decision or not make contact at all, but either way we can't ask their opinions or learn very much about them prior. We have to make this decision based entirely on our society's moral compass, and we unfortunately cannot know what they think about it regardless. This cannot be a team exercise. We must make the decision based on how we feel about it, and they must suffer the consequences either way.
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The simple fact that wikipedia is the final decision maker on issues, makes us a lesser civilization.

I'll argue the pure opposite, the fact we have a bank of knowledge with so many pages it could take many years to read the whole thing defines us as an intelligent civilisation, we have a thirst for knowledge, and have made it easily accessible for anyone, educated or not.

The days of the conquistadores are gone. We aren't going to go marching in enforcing our rule. But establishing contact, is, I think essential, you can't leave them entirely on their own. They have a right to know there's a whole WORLD besides themselves. Imagine if we stumbled upon a planet teeming with intelligent life similar to us only thousands of years behind. What would you do? Leave them? "study" them? Or let them know there are others out there. I would want to know that sort of thing! It's one of man's greatest questions, "are we alone out here?"
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Grayseff: And what about disease? Their bodies, knowledge, and intelligence are too far behind to merge with modern society. Are you going to walk in, say, "By the way, we exist. Hope you don't catch our diseases now!" and leave? Perhaps leave a cute letter that they cannot read?

You keep arguing that we should make contact, but you're completely ignoring the fact that making contact usually leaves the tribes diseased and dead.

From the site that you probably did not even look at: "It is not unusual for 50% of a tribe to be wiped out within a year of first contact, by diseases such as measles and influenza."
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I did view that site, and I mentioned that I found it heartbreaking. So what do you suggest? Cordon off the entire area and make it illegal to go anywhere near it?
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Wouldn't it be possible for a small group of anthropologists and their gear to be, er, disinfected before coming into contact with them? Disinfect their gear, keep them isolated for a while on a antibiotic cocktail, then have them make contact?
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