Login | Register

Nerd Paradise

Closed for holidays
Page: 1 2 3 4 Next >
A new indiginous people have been discovered in the Amazon. Should they be contacted? Should they be left to live how they have been? Should they be integrated into the modern world?
[Quote] [Link]
I reckon we should make contact, however we should not interfere, perhaps if we could learn about them, I just don't want to see them integrated into the hundreds of thousands of people left pretty ruined by the modern system, because they are economically, and educationally, fucked... However I think it's so pretentious and irritating when people talk about "escaping the modern life" and "us being the lost ones." It's like, yes, they live differently to us, doesn't mean we're lost or that their lives are particularly special and great, we're just different to hem, for all we know they could be barbaric and cruel people.
[Quote] [Link]
If it weren't for the fact that we have the capability of vastly improving their physical health through modern medicine, I would say that it's an easy decision. As it is, I'm not sure where I stand. I suppose we could contact them and offer them medical help if they desire it, as well as education, again if they desire it.

Really a tough issue, though. :/
[Quote] [Link]
If we contact them, though, getting medical help won't be an option anymore. Almost guaranteed something that we carry they won't have antibodies for, meaning that if we send people in long enough to learn their language and offer help we'll have had to start helping them already. Or so it seems, I'm not an expert on these things.
[Quote] [Link]
There must be some way to prevent the spread of disease...
[Quote] [Link]
I suppose people could go in with masks and such, but I imagine that would terrify the tribe. We don't want violence on the first encounter. I think it would be better to observe them for a time, learn what we can before making contact.

Here is an interesting question. Say the tribe engages in some form of tribal warfare with another group, and in the process people are killed. What should be the legal action taken by the country the tribe is in? Should they be just as responsible as anyone else, or should we let them be?
[Quote] [Link]
Who would they attack? We didn't know they existed until very recently. Presumably they don't know we exist--none of us have every seen them, after all. There can't be very many tribes we don't know about, and if they were in contact with a tribe we had contact with we'd know about them by proxy (probably). It seems very improbable that there is anybody for them to attack. For all they know, they could be the only humans in existence--or so it seems based on what we know about them.

I wonder how they explain the sounds from helicopters, which they must hear from time to time. I wonder if they've ever seen a plane in the distance and wondered what it is. They're pretty deep in the jungle, so it's possible that the strips of sky they see never have aircraft in it.
[Quote] [Link]
Certainly I am interesting in learning more about these people and their culture. I just wish there were a way to provide medical assistance, learn about them, and perhaps even let them learn about us without destroying their culture, which tends to happen in these situations, sadly.
[Quote] [Link]
I just remember watching a video about a similar story, and undiscovered and untouched tribe. They were at war with another tribe that was in the area. I thought it was weird that no one seemed to be doing anything about them killing each other.

Edit: Yes, it would be very interesting to learn from these people. I can't imagine how huge something like this must be for historians.
[Quote] [Link]
These situations also open up huge opportunities for psychological and sociological research. Nearly every mind in the world has been influenced by Western culture . . . and these people haven't. Imagine if studying them could affirm or deny assumptions we have about what is naturally human. Yet, "protecting them" at the cost of their culture is extreme. Who are we to say they need protecting? But, clearly we could raise their quality of life . . .
[Quote] [Link]
I just watched that while trying to find information about the recently discovered tribe. I almost linked it, too. That video is one of the most amazing things I've ever seen.
[Quote] [Link]
It really is. My God, imagine it, seeing all this foreign stuff for the first time, They'd never seen a blade, their own reflection, cups, fire, it's stunning.
[Quote] [Link]
If they are a thriving people why mess with them?
[Quote] [Link]
I love the part where they appear to be trying to wipe the white stuff off his skin. XD
[Quote] [Link]
That made me laugh too. :P

Gorgon, I agree, that is truly incredible footage. Absolutely amazing. Just imagining how significant a moment that would be for those people, it blows my mind.
[Quote] [Link]
I have a few questions I wanted to ask:
  • Why introduce ourselves to these people that are obviously thriving on their own? These tribes are simple people with a way of living that is as foreign to us, as life on Mars. Why integrate ourselves into that? Why not leave it alone and see what happens? Why not let them progress into what they would were there not outside forces? Why not observe them and learn from them?
  • What's makes us better than these tribes?
Some would say that our technology, our medical advances and machinery clearly make us better. Yet, these people have survived for generations. you see them with children on their hips. Food available to them and loggings? Which brings me to another question.
  • Who are we to define happiness? What is happiness? I ask these questions to stress that being a more advanced civilization, having more, knowing more, does not necessarily mean that we have a better existence. While life has many aspects; the pursuit of happiness, whether saving up for that new pair of shoes, or working up the nerve to ask that co-worker out is one of the more important aspects of existence. Hell, it's even in our constitution. In this world that has been provided us, we are jaded. For most, existing here is not like existing in their world. Skipping a day of work, or blowing of our responsibly doesn't have the same consequences as they have. I know that sounds horrible, to think that a day of rest would result in no food. Oh, but how it must feel to be so self reliant? Where happiness is not getting the newest Playstation game next week, but is knowing that you have provided for your family. Where happiness is sitting down with your comrades and family and enjoying a meal that you all worked together to create. To have a closeness that can only come from banding together to take on harsh conditions and survive.
There is no way of knowing who they are as people without talking to them, getting to know them. But will talking to them, will integrating ourselves change the way they look at things and change who they are?

  • What happens now? Now that we have opened our world to them. Do we vaccinate them and hope that the new disease that we have amassed upon them does not wipe them out? Do we tantalize them with demonstrations of advanced tools and trinkets then leave them wondering, "what else is there?"? Do we integrate ourselves into their culture. Slowly changing the way they do things until there is no semblance of their previous culture left?
[Quote] [Link]
I don't know about the majority of those questions, but as far as medicine goes, our medical practices would certainly drastically extend their life expectancy, assuming we don't introduce new diseases.
[Quote] [Link]
We would introduce new disease. Is extending their life worth changing their values and practices? the fact that they are there, with numerous people proves that they are capable of existence without our assistance. What's is life without quality and how do you measure a person's quality of life? I'd say by how happy they are.
[Quote] [Link]
Why introduce ourselves to these people that are obviously thriving on their own? These tribes are simple people with a way of living that is as foreign to us, as life on Mars. Why integrate ourselves into that? Why not leave it alone and see what happens? Why not let them progress into what they would were there not outside forces? Why not observe them and learn from them?

Because they are people, not science experiments. It's hard to make judgments in situations such as these, because although I believe people should have the right to self-determination, which these people cannot do if they don't even realize we exist, it's also true that if contact is made, these people will be unable to thrive in our current culture without extensive funding and aid from governments.It isn't about integrating ourselves into them, it's about giving them the option to integrate into *us*.

What's makes us better than these tribes?
Some would say that our technology, our medical advances and machinery clearly make us better. Yet, these people have survived for generations. you see them with children on their hips. Food available to them and loggings?

Surviving for long periods of time != better. I can say that I would not like it much if I had to struggle every day for food to eat, or be subject to the possibility of tribal war at any time. I do not know how the natives would think, but they will never have the chance to decide unless we give it to them.

Who are we to define happiness? What is happiness? I ask these questions to stress that being a more advanced civilization, having more, knowing more, does not necessarily mean that we have a better existence. While life has many aspects; the pursuit of happiness, whether saving up for that new pair of shoes, or working up the nerve to ask that co-worker out is one of the more important aspects of existence. Hell, it's even in our constitution. In this world that has been provided us, we are jaded. For most, existing here is not like existing in their world. Skipping a day of work, or blowing of our responsibly doesn't have the same consequences as they have. I know that sounds horrible, to think that a day of rest would result in no food. Oh, but how it must feel to be so self reliant? Where happiness is not getting the newest Playstation game next week, but is knowing that you have provided for your family. Where happiness is sitting down with your comrades and family and enjoying a meal that you all worked together to create. To have a closeness that can only come from banding together to take on harsh conditions and survive.

Worrying about happiness is understandable. Maybe we should let the natives decide what makes them happy instead of assuming that we understand their world view, though. Personally, I think that it's perfectly possible to be close to your family even in modern settings.

There is no way of knowing who they are as people without talking to them, getting to know them. But will talking to them, will integrating ourselves change the way they look at things and change who they are?

Possibly. Probably. Almost definitely. But who are we to decide if this is good or bad for them? Do we have a right to play god?

What happens now? Now that we have opened our world to them. Do we vaccinate them and hope that the new disease that we have amassed upon them does not wipe them out? Do we tantalize them with demonstrations of advanced tools and trinkets then leave them wondering, "what else is there?"? Do we integrate ourselves into their culture. Slowly changing the way they do things until there is no semblance of their previous culture left?

I think that contact should focus primarily on giving the natives choice in their future. I don't think it should focus on assimilation.
[Quote] [Link]
Or we learn from them. Once upon a time we were primitive, we learned to manipulate our land the way they have theirs, we should learn how they use their lands, because they may have medicines of their own, all manners of things we may need in our own day to day lives.

let me go back to, what if they were bloodthirsty, if they attacked other tribes? What would we do? I do agree that they should be left alone, SunshineDust, but I feel there are some points you are making that are annoying from an intellectual perspective. So to provide a counterargument, I assume it's like finding a child who never had family or parents, wild and alone somewhere, would you not feel that it is your obligation to help the child? To bring them up to speed? To help them understand what makes them sick, that they don't have to be ruthless and survive on nothing?

I agree they should be left, but there are ethical dilemmas with leaving them alone as well...

Edit: Raining you make excellent points as always. Thank you.

Edit: Sophrosyne your link is heartbreaking, watching all the videos of other tribes whose homes have been destroyed by bulldozers is terrifying to think about.
[Quote] [Link]
~Surviving for long periods of time != better. I can say that I would not like it much if I had to struggle every day for food to eat, or be subject to the possibility of tribal war at any time. I do not know how the natives would think, but they will never have the chance to decide unless we give it to them.
Possible Side Effects: total annihilation or complete lose of your history.

If that was all you've ever known, it would just be who you are.



~Possibly. Probably. Almost definitely. But who are we to decide if this is good or bad for them? Do we have a right to play god?

What do you call invading their territory, and throwing everything about ourselves at them, then expecting them to integrate into us?


~I think that contact should focus primarily on giving the natives choice in their future. I don't think it should focus on assimilation.

How is that a choice? "Hello Tribal people. Here we are. Everything we have is better than what you have. We can take care of your children with better health care, clothes, and food. We have better tools and housing and we have super cool trinkets that you've never heard of. Don't worry about it if you're scared or confused, you can go ahead and stay here in these slums that you have worked yourself to the bone to create. It's up to you, really."


Grayseff, there is a difference between a lone starving child and a thriving tribal community.

You do make good points. Say that we do give them there choice it should be done with delicacy. Not by throwing food at them and dazzling them with mirrors.
[Quote] [Link]
Or, like many tribes in PNG, send in people who don't bash about, if you watch my video, you will realise that it isn't about forced integration, it's about introducing the idea of new peoples to these tribal peoples. You realise that more often than not, they bring along Bougainvillians or other modern-tribal peoples to help bring a cultural perspective.

Edit: Who says they are thriving?
[Quote] [Link]
Do you see anything essential that they lack?
I'm probably just romanticizing the idea of a group of people that have none of our influence. That have an ideal that may or may not be completely different than ours. I just hate to find out that it was an amazing Ideal and that we just integrated it right into us.
[Quote] [Link]
Page: 1 2 3 4 Next >
Current Date: 14 Cado 0:1Current Time: 11.1.80Join us in IRC...
Server: irc.esper.net
Channel: #nerdparadise
Your IP: 54.237.38.30Browser: UnknownBrowser Version: 0