Cosman, what's your issue with modern physics?

Sorry, you misinterpreted. I meant a "tool" as in something a deity used

If a deity created the world, I imagine they'd have been the source of any tools. Otherwise we're left with a "what came before that? What made the tool? What made the thing that made the tool?..." ad infinitum question series.

Not to sound ignorant about world religions, but how many can there possibly be that don't believe in creationalism and intellegent design?

I'm confused. Could you reword your question or explain it a little?

He's saying that most or all religions must be inherently creationist. Off the top of my head, Hinduism isn't:

Neither being nor non-being was as yet. What was concealed? And where? And in whose protection? Who really knows? Who can declare it? Whence was it born, and whence came this creation? The devas were born later than this world's creation, so who knows from where it came into existence? None can know from where creation has arisen, and whether he has or has not produced it. He who surveys it in the highest heavens, he alone knows - or perhaps does not know. (Rig Veda 10:129)

In fact most Indo-European religions are non-creationist, conceiving of the gods as evolving after the universe.

Damn those afro-asiatic imports!

I feel as though I'm missing some important part of the discussion to not understand what LoveInVein is saying, but I don't want to have to read 34 pages of back log. Anyone have an idea for a good starting point?

This discussion is so old and long that I doubt any of us would remember it without backreading a significant amount.

Darn.

You implicitly wanted examples of non-creationist religions, I provided one.

Evolution all the way!

Sorry creationists...

I remember reading about that exact finding in Francis Collins' Language of God. That's one of the main pieces of evidence that helped convince me of evolution's validity back in middle school.

Very nice.

I don't necessarily believe in anything much. There's evidence for evolution, so I toss out creationism. If I were to pick, I'd say intelligent design of a non-Christian belief system. But I don't believe in it. It just fits in to my world view of "what would be interesting", because I feel I don't really have any way of knowing and, in the end, it really doesn't matter what I believe in.

I think that people should try to believe what's true, not what seems interesting.

I think that people should maintain skepticism, even when something seems interesting. =P

Skepticism is not an end unto itself. Belief and skepticism are like good and evil. Yes, we should avoid evil, but more to the point, we should seek to do good.

It's not enough to avoid believing in the wrong things. We ought to strive to believe in the right things.

As Hydrogen said. It's about not being satisfied with sub-par answers, who knows? The truth might be more amazing anyway.

Because, as I said, I have no way of knowing the truth. So what's the point? I'll take ascribing to what's interesting over nothing, quite literally just because I can. It makes my life more interesting, though it doesn't rule it.

Evolution has way more evidence supporting it than anything else.

I was just being a facetious twat in this particular instance. That's what I usually mean by "=P." It's my facetious asshole face.

Yes, I said that. Which is why I completely ruled out creationism. But it doesn't completely rule out intelligent design.

If intelligent design were a real thing, I would be inclined to think that vestigial appendages would be gotten rid of a good bit quicker than they are. Appendixes, for instance (although there is some evidence that they are a helpful repository of good bacteria in case of body emergencies), are an example in humans. Whales still have hind leg bones, which don't even have theorized uses. If someone/thing were intelligently designing us all, why stop halfway in so many instances? I could see them being there for a short intermediary period to cushion change, but many have been around for hundreds of years.